Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

by **HoosierDaddy** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:00 pm

As stated above Retro Bright is not a product, it is a site that gives a formula with Hydrogen Peroxide to remove the yellow. You can by 30% Hyro Peroxide at hair salons. It is used for bleaching hair.

Another way to do this (old school bmxers do it alot with there mag wheels and other plastics) is soak the part in a 1 part bleach 2 parts water mix. I have done it and it works great. Do not let the bleach get on any metal though because it will speed up rust.

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:17 am

So the problem with the Pretender shells "spotting" or rotting after a period of time is the same problem as the yellowing, which makes sense when you think about it. It's the fire retardant breaking down in the rubber / plastic and the bromine gas creates those pesky brown spots. I just put Waverider's belt and helmet through the test. I can't believe what 5 days in H2O2 did for it. It's not 100% perfect, but it looks way better than it did before. If you look at the gallery I posted last week of Waverider, there're two Waveriders. One is the American version and the other is the Japanese version which is in far better shape than the American one. I gave the American one's helmet and belt the bath. I'll post a couple of pictures after I do another camera dump after my next photo session. It's not perfect, but it's definitely better than it was. I'm sure a longer bath or some fresh H2O2 would do the trick eventually.

News Credits: 7 · by **alldarker** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:07 am

I've experimented quite a bit with 3% peroxide last summer, when we had sun, and even now I have some TF's which are itching for a peroxide bath.
I've found out the peroxide is bad for chrome parts: I was soaking a junker G1 Groove, which worked well on the white, but not on his arms, which totally lost their shine and the chrome even started to flake off. Also, metal screws do seem to tarnish or rust extra, due to the extra oxygen which is able to bond to the metal. This rusting will probably get worse with stronger peroxide solutions: I haven't yet sought access to anything stronger than the 3% peroxide so I can't tell for sure.
The print on the metal foil type stickers also seem to be damaged by the solution. Usually not something a set of replacement stickers can't handle, but its useful knowledge nonetheless.

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:45 am

alldarker wrote:I've experimented quite a bit with 3% peroxide last summer, when we had sun, and even now I have some TF's which are itching for a peroxide bath.
I've found out the peroxide is bad for chrome parts: I was soaking a junker G1 Groove, which worked well on the white, but not on his arms, which totally lost their shine and the chrome even started to flake off. Also, metal screws do seem to tarnish or rust extra, due to the extra oxygen which is able to bond to the metal. This rusting will probably get worse with stronger peroxide solutions: I haven't yet sought access to anything stronger than the 3% peroxide so I can't tell for sure.
The print on the metal foil type stickers also seem to be damaged by the solution. Usually not something a set of replacement stickers can't handle, but its useful knowledge nonetheless.

I bet some rust remover or white vinegar would fix the slight surface rust on the metal pins and screws. Probably no such luck with the chromed parts though. Not surprised that Groove had that problem with his chrome.

I'm in the middle of restoring a Double Punch Action Master. Some of his pink parts had yellowed. I have his feet soaking but haven't tried his arms yet. I can't figure out how to open up his torso despite having removed the screws. It feels like the upper part of his torso, somewhere in his shoulders or neck area, is glued together or welded together or something. Either way, I can't bust it open. I'm afraid to just submerge the whole torso because of the metal pins that hold in his arms as well as another other metal pieces that might be inside his torso.

void of suggestions, I decided to buy all of the ingredients to make Retr0brite. I also bought a UV lamp and all sorts of good stuff to help speed this process along. I even bought the 10% H2O2 you can buy at Sally's Beauty, thought I have to admit that I'm afraid to use anything higher than 3% since I've seen such promising results with just regular ol' H2O2. I did doctor up the latest H2O2 bath with a 1/4 teaspoon of Oxy. Can't tell if it's making a difference.

I hope that Double Punch's feet will be restored by tomorrow morning. I've got my optics crossed!

News Credits: 36 · by **Pretender Skywarp** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:31 am

My only concern over this type of restoration would be the long-term effects, which leaves us with a bit of a double edged sword. Do we leave this figures to discolour now or take a chance that we are inadvertetnly creating the next GPS?

Fair play to those of you that are doing it tho', I'm not sure I'd be brave enough!

News Credits: 7 · by **alldarker** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:29 am

It's true: the long term effects of H2O2 still aren't clear, mostly due to the fact that this method was only 'discovered' a couple of years ago. Considering that what it seems to be doing is 'neutralizing' (excess) bromine flame retardant in the plastic which discolors the surface of the plastic where it is activated by UV-light, it is indeed altering the chemical composition of the plastic, even if only on the surface. This might have detrimental effects on the structural integrity of the plastic. Still, GPS and the brittling of rubber on TF's and other toys (due to the leaching of plastic weakeners) already shows us that even untouched, untreated toys will deteriorate over time.

The method is used primarily to improve the look of items which have already become much less desirable and valuable due to their discoloration. This makes it a method which, at least for the short to middle-long term, can definitely improve an otherwise 'lost' object. I see it mostly as a way to repair already damaged goods, not as a way to conserve them. I'd also severely discourage anyone from 'preemptively' using this method on a near perfect item.

This all actually gets me thinking: nowadays the TF community is still set in the conviction that GPS is totally irreversible. However, that's also what was said about the yellowing of plastic until a couple of years ago. Perhaps one day we will find a method to actually stop GPS, just like we are able to reverse yellowing with H2H2! Sure, the yellowing is primarily a surface problem, while GPS affects the whole of the plastic, but perhaps something like microwaving* GPS items might be the answer we were looking for all along!

*Probably a very dangerous idea: attempt this totally at your own risk!!!

by **The Legend** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:12 am

A step-by-step guide with pics or video would be worth featuring on the front page, along with other restoration tips like the hairdryer thing. Stuff like this is really valuable information for fans to have access to and featuring it on the site will save scouring the forums in a years time.
So would this work under a regular lamp or does it need the sun or a UV light to work?

News Credits: 1 · by **chrisc4** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:41 am

does this work on recent toys? like generations drift or red alert of rts jazz?

Website · by **Flux Convoy** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:52 am

chrisc4 wrote:does this work on recent toys? like generations drift or red alert of rts jazz?

If they're yellowed by UV damage, I'd imagine so. If you're wanting to brighten the original color of the plastic, no. That's not how it works.

News Credits: 33 · by **Amelie** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:20 am

Seibertron - could you sticky this? It seems like a thread similar to this one pops up every few days sometimes.

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:58 am

Pretender Skywarp wrote:My only concern over this type of restoration would be the long-term effects, which leaves us with a bit of a double edged sword. Do we leave this figures to discolour now or take a chance that we are inadvertetnly creating the next GPS?

Fair play to those of you that are doing it tho', I'm not sure I'd be brave enough!

You don't have any risk of this happening once you understand the science behind it. Contrary to popular belief, I don't believe this was discovered by Transformers fans/collectors nor was this originally intended to fix Transformers. It was discovered by a bunch of computer nuts trying to fix old school computers that had browned/yellowed.

http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/

The first instance I know of Transformers fans discussing this restoration process was here at thetf.net.

If you read about the whys and hows on the Retr0bright site, it makes complete sense why this works. Read this article from Retr0bright about the cause of the yellowing ...

Retr0bright wrote:Flame Retardants – The Cause of the Yellowing

Now, ABS on its own is combustible; not a good idea for a piece of electrical equipment that may catch fire in an extreme case, or be involved in a fire caused by something else. The manufacturer doesn’t really want his brainchild bursting into flames as this would be bad for business and for you. To overcome this, they add other chemicals to the plastic which can reduce or stop the spread of flame should the item come into contact with a fire.

These chemicals are called poly brominated diphenyl ethers (PBDEs). These chemicals contain large amounts of Bromine, a chemical element that is in Group VII in the Periodic Table and is in the same family as Chlorine and Fluorine. The Group VII elements are known as Halogens and have been used extensively over the years in fire extinguishers, in chemicals like BCF (borochlorofluromethane), which used to be a very popular fire extinguisher chemical. Others include Halon and they all belong to a family called CFCs (chloroflurocarbons). CFCs have now fallen out of use because they have been proven to attack ozone and have been linked to the hole in the Earth’s ozone layer.

In plastics, however, the use of Bromine was widespread in the 1980s and 90s. When used in plastics, they are not a risk to the ozone layer as they are dispersed in the polymer. They can move about through the polymer though, and we will talk about this shortly.

Bromine is a brown, mobile liquid that easily becomes a gas. Chlorine is a greeny-yellow gas. Compare the pictures of the two elements below.

That brown colour may seem familiar to owners of older computers...

TBBP-A - The Source of the Bromine in the Plastic

The main chemical used as a flame retardant for ABS polymers in the 1980s and 90s was called tetrabromobisphenol-A (or TBBP-A for short). TBBP-A is part of the PBDE family of chemicals has four Bromine atoms attached to the remainder of the molecule, as shown below.

The more Bromine you can get into a molecule, the more effective it becomes as a fire retardant and the more economical it is to add for a given level of fire retardation. There is a drawback, however, in that Bromine is unique in that it can be affected by UV light and exposing TBBP-A to sunlight (which contains UV-A and UV-B light) can cause the molecule to degrade.

Retr0bright wrote:The best explanation that I have for what we are doing is this. We are breaking apart hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) into O, H and water (H2O). Water dissociates into H and OH naturally. We are taking the oxygen away from the bromine using TAED and UV light, then replacing it with a hydrogen. The removed O links up with the O from the broken up peroxide and becomes O2 and is given off as bubbles. The picture below from Tonyyeb shows this crazy but useful mechanism at work; the bubbles are caused by the reaction on the surface of the ABS plastic.

The color change is happening because you are replacing the chemical bond with what should be there. You're basically restoring the plastic back to what it was on a molecular level.

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:15 am

Amelie wrote:Seibertron - could you sticky this? It seems like a thread similar to this one pops up every few days sometimes.

I merged about ten topics together that I could find with this one. Let's keep this topic alive so that it doesn't fall off the radar. Post your pics folks!

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:18 am

alldarker wrote:This all actually gets me thinking: nowadays the TF community is still set in the conviction that GPS is totally irreversible. However, that's also what was said about the yellowing of plastic until a couple of years ago. Perhaps one day we will find a method to actually stop GPS, just like we are able to reverse yellowing with H2H2! Sure, the yellowing is primarily a surface problem, while GPS affects the whole of the plastic, but perhaps something like microwaving* GPS items might be the answer we were looking for all along!

I can't help but think that GPS is caused by the same problem, now that I figured out that the H2O2 fixes Pretender shells as well. I'm really tempted to let a BW2 Randy soak in H2O2 for a week or two to see if it makes him less fragile. Now the track is to get him out of the package without damaging him. Hm ...

News Credits: 13 · by **grimdragon2001** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:43 pm

i hear the poroxide is good for vintage figures but as far as the classics go i wouldnt recommend it. i lost classics ramjet and starscream to the poroxide making thier plastics brittle

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:32 pm

grimdragon2001 wrote:i hear the poroxide is good for vintage figures but as far as the classics go i wouldnt recommend it. i lost classics ramjet and starscream to the poroxide making thier plastics brittle

That doesn't make any sense. What level of H2O2 were you using? 3%, which is all you need wouldn't do this. And I don't even think 30% would do that. It would just discolor it.

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:35 pm

For those of you who are doing this indoors with a UV lamp, are you using UVA or UVB lamps? I bought a UVB lamp/bulb yesterday but can't really tell if it's working as well as natural sunlight. The pink feet of Double Punch are being stubborn. They look the same as they did a few days ago when I put them in. I replaced the H2O2 today to see if that makes a difference by the weekend.

News Credits: 7 · by **alldarker** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:11 am

Seibertron wrote:I can't help but think that GPS is caused by the same problem, now that I figured out that the H2O2 fixes Pretender shells as well. I'm really tempted to let a BW2 Randy soak in H2O2 for a week or two to see if it makes him less fragile. Now the track is to get him out of the package without damaging him. Hm ...

I'm very interested in the outcome of this experiment! The only GPS type TF I have is Magnaboss's Silverbolt, and he's still MISB, so no chance of me doing any experimenting on him. Seems like Randy would indeed be the cheapest GPS-affected Transformer to experiment on. Actually, an already broken GPS item might be even better to experiment on: testing to see if the H2O2 has any positive effect would probably mean putting stress on the plastic anyhow.

I'm actually curious about microwaving the GPS plastic too: it would most definitely mean disassembling a GPS TF to be sure no metal parts get put in the microwave, and that alone would be a problem for most GPS objects, but I really wonder if it might in some way bond the plastic mix better...

News Credits: 12 · by **robofreak** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:37 pm

alldarker wrote:
Seibertron wrote:I can't help but think that GPS is caused by the same problem, now that I figured out that the H2O2 fixes Pretender shells as well. I'm really tempted to let a BW2 Randy soak in H2O2 for a week or two to see if it makes him less fragile. Now the track is to get him out of the package without damaging him. Hm ...

I'm very interested in the outcome of this experiment! The only GPS type TF I have is Magnaboss's Silverbolt, and he's still MISB, so no chance of me doing any experimenting on him. Seems like Randy would indeed be the cheapest GPS-affected Transformer to experiment on. Actually, an already broken GPS item might be even better to experiment on: testing to see if the H2O2 has any positive effect would probably mean putting stress on the plastic anyhow.

I'm actually curious about microwaving the GPS plastic too: it would most definitely mean disassembling a GPS TF to be sure no metal parts get put in the microwave, and that alone would be a problem for most GPS objects, but I really wonder if it might in some way bond the plastic mix better...

Why on earth would you microwave GPS plastic? I have $10 that says microwaving the plastic or any plastic for that matter would turn into a bubbling mess.

The problem I see with GPS is one of 2 things. It's either a chemical additive like the Bromine or it's the metallic flakes.

My guess is that the problem with gold plastic is the metallic flakes causing micro bubbles in large amounts which causes the breakage.

Short of Hasbro and Takara releasing every single GPS affected figure in some kind of new plastic, the problem will never be resolved.

I do stand to be corrected however if someone can pull it off.

News Credits: 7 · by **alldarker** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:44 am

robofreak wrote:
alldarker wrote:I'm actually curious about microwaving the GPS plastic too: it would most definitely mean disassembling a GPS TF to be sure no metal parts get put in the microwave, and that alone would be a problem for most GPS objects, but I really wonder if it might in some way bond the plastic mix better...

Why on earth would you microwave GPS plastic? I have $10 that says microwaving the plastic or any plastic for that matter would turn into a bubbling mess.

Why would plastic turn into a bubbling mess in the microwave? There's plenty of plastics that are microwave safe: just ask my local Chinese takeaway

And I'm definitely not suggesting that you put the plastic in for 30 minutes at full power: if I were testing this, I'd only start at lowest power for a couple of seconds...

robofreak wrote:The problem I see with GPS is one of 2 things. It's either a chemical additive like the Bromine or it's the metallic flakes.

My guess is that the problem with gold plastic is the metallic flakes causing micro bubbles in large amounts which causes the breakage.

I kind of agree with you on this: I'd say the (gold) metallic flakes aren't able to mix or bond properly with the plastic, making them nothing more than loose, unbonded microscopic particles within the plastic. Not actually bubbles, but they have the same effect in that they are not supporting the structure and in fact are causing structural weakness within the whole plastic mix. It's also the reason I'd hope that microwaving the GPS plastic might melt or 'sticky up' those metallic flakes, making the bond with the surrounding plastic. Sure, it's a risk, and it's a idea that's pretty far 'out there', but currently ideas like this is all we have to go on!

robofreak wrote:Short of Hasbro and Takara releasing every single GPS affected figure in some kind of new plastic, the problem will never be resolved.

This is exactly the kind of opinion that also existed about yellowing plastic, before the H2O2 method was discovered. Back then, people also thought it would never be reversible, and that the best solution was to accept it, paint over it or replace the whole item. The H2O2 method has definitely changed views on that, though!

robofreak wrote:I do stand to be corrected however if someone can pull it off.

I'd say that considering the extent of the GPS problem and the damage it causes, any wild idea to cure it is currently better than just sitting back and accepting it as fate...

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:51 pm

I agree about the GPS issue. The question is whether or not we can find a fix, if any, before the remaining samples all crumble. The clock's ticking!

Back to fixing the yellowing, I must've left the feet for Double Punch in the H202 too long because where they were once yellowish pink in some parts are now faded whitish pink. I thought I read that after a certain amount of time that the color restores to the object but I can't find where I read that now. It seems like it must be really a minor surface discoloration because they were pink as pink could be until I removed them from the H202, rinsed them off and then let them air dry.

News Credits: 12 · by **robofreak** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:02 pm

I think the best treatmentent to the GPS issue would be some kind of chemical treament that would soak into the plastic. and act as an epoxy on a small scale.

The trick is finding something that could act as that bonding agent. Something that could strengthen the plastic after a soak and sufficient drying time.

I'll wait for someone to come up with a brilliant idea in the next few years.

I've been avoiding GPS figures because of the sheer breakability of them. G2 Slingshot has got to be the worst of them.

News Credits: 33 · by **Amelie** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:06 pm

It seems unlikely that we could allow something to sink into the plastic in the case of GPS - don't forget the breakdown is caused by the metallic flecks breaking the plastic apart.

But... I think we could coat the plastic, maybe in a layer of resin\varnish to help hold the plastic together. Although even if that did work, you'd still be left with the issue that the new layer has left the toy rather still\unable to transform fully.

News Credits: 12 · by **robofreak** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:10 pm

Amelie wrote:It seems unlikely that we could allow something to sink into the plastic in the case of GPS - don't forget the breakdown is caused by the metallic flecks breaking the plastic apart.

But... I think we could coat the plastic, maybe in a layer of resin\varnish to help hold the plastic together. Although even if that did work, you'd still be left with the issue that the new layer has left the toy rather still\unable to transform fully.

How about we just recast all the GPS affected parts and use a plastic that isn't as weak for the new batch?

That way, we can just replace all the parts.

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:13 pm

Amelie wrote:It seems unlikely that we could allow something to sink into the plastic in the case of GPS - don't forget the breakdown is caused by the metallic flecks breaking the plastic apart.

But... I think we could coat the plastic, maybe in a layer of resin\varnish to help hold the plastic together. Although even if that did work, you'd still be left with the issue that the new layer has left the toy rather still\unable to transform fully.

I'd rather find a different solution. Coating the plastic seems like painting yellowed plastic.

What if it has something to do with the metallic flakes as well as the yellowing issue which is caused by the fire retardant breaking down in the ABS plastic? It would make sense that after X amount of time that both gold plastic and other colored plastic both suffer from the fire retardant breaking down. The gold plastic, due to its makeup, reacts differently by becoming fragile due to the metal flakes. No one bought a gold plastic figure off the shelf and had it break the moment they got home from the store. It always happens a few years later.

News Credits: 3558 · by **Seibertron** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:14 pm

robofreak wrote:
Amelie wrote:It seems unlikely that we could allow something to sink into the plastic in the case of GPS - don't forget the breakdown is caused by the metallic flecks breaking the plastic apart.

But... I think we could coat the plastic, maybe in a layer of resin\varnish to help hold the plastic together. Although even if that did work, you'd still be left with the issue that the new layer has left the toy rather still\unable to transform fully.

How about we just recast all the GPS affected parts and use a plastic that isn't as weak for the new batch?

That way, we can just replace all the parts.

I keep hoping a 3rd party company does this.