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News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:50 am

No, seriously, I am asking if I am crazy. Or maybe I am dead wrong. Or maybe the world is crazy and I got caught in the blast?

Here's the story. The first Gundam series I watched was either Wing or G-Gundam. Later on I found Seed and Destiny, and then 00. I like all of them for their own pluses, and I don't care if people don't like them or like one more than others, etc. That's life. But I wanted to get into the original series that started it all, so I found a reviewer on YouTube called Animaster and watched a number of his reviews to see if I wanted to watch the older animation. I was already about 8 episodes into Mobile Suit Gundam but as I had seen Seed (a clear remake, IMO) I had a hard time getting through the episodes.

Anyway, thanks to Animaster's reviews I did go back and finish Mobile Suit Gundam. I liked it, but I was disappointed that the explanation for Newtypes was glossed over due to the series being shorted, so I personally give it 4/5 stars. I eagerly looked forward to Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, and I was let down. Big time. I still give it 3/5 stars, and I appreciate finally getting an explanation for what NewTypes are in detail, but I cannot get past its flaws. Animaster gave it a perfect score in his review, so I commented with my own thoughts on the series in a respectful manner. I even got some likes.

And then I got personally attacked by a Seed/Destiny hater. I mean, I know it's YouTube I'm talking about here, and the haters over there tend to rule the comments section, but this guy flat out told me I had no right to critique the show because I was using a Seed/Destiny avatar at the time, like I do here. I'm not joking.

Here is the link to Animaster's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngOfQygSFY8

I post as Bradley97 S over there. Below is my response to the review. If you'd like to read the attack and my dialogue with my attacker, you should have no trouble finding my comment thread below the review, though you may have to select "Newest First" since the "Top Comments" don't always default to those posted since YouTube upgraded its comments section.

This response does contain SPOILERS to Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, so please read at your own risk!

I respect that you like this series a lot, but 5/5? Where to begin? The following response contains SPOILERS, so please do not go any further if you have not seen Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam which I will give 3/5, and this is why...

I guess I'll start with the most obvious issue, blatant hypocrisy. The Titans are evil. That is established right at the beginning with three events. First, Kamille gets TLS beat out of him before being thrown into a holding cell for being a jerk towards an officer. Granted he deserved it, but as we were about to learn, "this is how the Titans do things." What do I mean? After Jarid carelessly crashes a Mk II causing lots of damage and casualties (the second event), Bright shows up to express his displeasure at testing the new Gundams in the residential area of the colony. And he has TLS beat out of him forcing him to submit. But later, when Kamille runs his mouth aboard the Argama and acts insubordinate, Bright himself "corrects" him. that's right, beating TLS out of someone has gone from how "the Titans do things" to "military correction." Amuro got the brig, Kamille gets a beat down. Way to distinguish good guys from bad.

That's not the biggest problem. First we have to discuss the annoyingly weak Reccoa, the insubordinate Katz, the way everyone reacts to them, and Shinta and Qum, the war orphans Char brings aboard the Argama.

First, I'll discuss Reccoa. She's beyond weak. She becomes a turncoat because there are no strong men aboard the Argama who can compete with Scirocco. Having become smitten by the only man to treat her "both as a soldier and as a woman" whatever that means, Reccoa goes on to commit war crimes and yet Kamille cannot bring himself in several encounters to blow her out of her misery, even though she's an irredeemable murderer. Apparently nobody can do what needs to be done until Emma faces her in a final encounter and calls her out on her idiocy. I don't mind that the encounter cost Emma her life, but what happens after that I'll get to in a bit.

On to Katz, who not once, but twice stole the G-Defenser and received no punishment for his actions. The first time he wanted to assassinate Sciracco and caused a bunch of problems. Yet, because he accidentally saved Kamille on one of his outings he never receives any "correction" nor is he thrown in the brig where he belongs. I mean, he stole the G-Defenser! It's an armor upgrade for the Mk II. What if Emma needed it in battle while he was out gallivanting? I could understand if he had taken the Methuss, but taking the G-Defenser was beyond reckless. And nobody pointed this out! Bright simply allowed him to launch so he would learn something. Really? He became so annoying I actually cheered when he died.

Yet how can I blast Katz without mentioning Shinta and Qum. They were meant to replace the original war orphans, of whom Katz was one on White Base. However, unlike Katz and his siblings on White Base, Shinta and Qum only cause problems, including enabling Katz to do things that should have gotten him killed. While they allowed Fa to show her motherly instincts, these kids were an annoying distraction whom Bright simply shrugs off when they sit on his lap during battle on the bridge.

And now the biggest problem, the secret powers of the Zeta Gundam. Yes, the Zeta Gundam apparently can absorb the souls of the dead and use their energy to make itself invulnerable to all forms of attack. Out of nowhere it simply glows red and cannot be destroyed. The mortally wounded Emma explains this power to Kamille as she dies in his arms, begging him to use her soul to win the day. Give me a break.

Animaster, I know you have issues with Seed, but at least when the Freedom glowed blue in its final battle with the Providence it was symbolic and had no physical effect on the mobile suite. The Freedom still had a leg blown off, and then its right arm, all while glowing blue. But the Zeta is suddenly invincible.

That is the biggest disappointment of Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, because unlike Amuro, who becomes a better pilot, pushes his Gundam beyond its abilities, and still ends up getting it severely damaged in the final battle, Kamille barely improves as a pilot, needs the Zeta to survive further battles in the war, and ends up with super powers that cause his mind to shatter in a hallow victory.

Oh, and the most memorable moments, and most enjoyable story arc of the series, revolve around Amuro's return to action to support Char and Kamille and get them back into space. I expected Kamille to learn from Amuro and become a better person and pilot. He becomes a better person, but it's debatable if his piloting skills improve. He never has that expected moment like Amuro when his Newtype abilities kick in and he suddenly operates his gundam at a higher level than any other pilot on the battlefield, and this letdown is what ultimately downgrades this series from outstanding to simply good.

So I ask again, am I crazy?

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:48 pm

Polite answer: yes.

I love zeta gundam it's not perfect butime I would give it a 4.5/5 because kamille gets on my nerves after a while. In terms of a sequel series, it's perfect as it allows new characters their time in the spotlight, the older characters return but stay largely in the background, apart from char but Tomino had plans for him and this was a step to that point.

Back to original point however, you have the right to an opinion but so is everyone else plus without looking at the other guys response there may have been a reason he brought up the seed/destiny thing since Destiny rips chunks out of zeta (and Seed and I'm talking scenarios here not returning characters).

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:10 pm

ZeroWolf wrote:Polite answer: yes.

I love zeta gundam it's not perfect butime I would give it a 4.5/5 because kamille gets on my nerves after a while. In terms of a sequel series, it's perfect as it allows new characters their time in the spotlight, the older characters return but stay largely in the background, apart from char but Tomino had plans for him and this was a step to that point.

Back to original point however, you have the right to an opinion but so is everyone else plus without looking at the other guys response there may have been a reason he brought up the seed/destiny thing since Destiny rips chunks out of zeta (and Seed and I'm talking scenarios here not returning characters).

Don't get me wrong, I agree like how the story unfolds and I see the larger picture. I also don't take issue with so many characters dying at the end. And we all have our rights to our opinions.

The thing is, this guy posted the following:

flyjunior151 week ago

someone who has avatar trash Gundam SEED / Destiny has no right to criticize anything ... your arguments are invalid compared to this video and your "critical"

I have no idea what the rest of his sentence was supposed to be because he didn't finish it.

So I responded to him:

Bradley97 S1 week ago

+flyjunior15 Wow. I understand that you love this series, but I don't, and I gave my reasons. 3/5 stars is still a passing grade. If you want to argue my points, please go right ahead, I'd love to read why you disagree with them. But to dismiss my opinions because of an image I chose as my avatar is juvenile. I simply happen to like that image, so I use it. Would you dismiss my thoughts so easily if my avatar was of 00 Gundam instead? That's my right, just like your choice of avatar is your right. It's also my right to disagree with the review above and list my reasons. It's your right to disagree with me, and of course to dislike me for no other reason than because you don't like my avatar. But know that I share no animosity towards you.

And I did that because I wanted to know sincerely why he disagreed so strongly with my response to the review that he personally attacked me and flat out dismissed my right to even have an opinion over my choice of avatar at the time. Maybe I'm crazy just for bothering because his response makes me think he is a troll, and I try to give the benefit of the doubt at all times, especially on the Web because often people forget we are all people on the other side of the keyboard, but this is what he wrote back:

flyjunior151 week ago (edited)

+Bradley97 S I'm sorry, I'm not interested responds extensive rant of a fan of seed, as serious as the number one thousand discussion you have with those people who despise and hate, so I do not care what you say. All your arguments are childish and inferior nature compared with this video. that simple.

Now, here's what I don't get: How is my response a rant? And he continues with the fan of Seed thing. I've heard of the Church of Jesus Yamato, and I'm no follower of that, I fully accept the problems with Seed and the failures of Destiny. I mean, Destiny could have been a very good sequel had the writers stuck with Shin and Athrun and had them switch sides at the midpoint when Durandal revealed he was nuts. At that point Shin's character development stops and he becomes a zombie. Further, it would have been amazing if Phantom Pain had turned out to be another clone instead of the fangasmic result. In fact, I fully admit that Destiny falls off the rails after Shin's battle with Kira and turns into a "what fangasmic thing can we do next" moment for the rest of the series. I admit I enjoy watching my favorite characters do what they do, but I also admit it falls into the category of fanwank or fanfic and that is very disappointing. But I still like the mobile suits, and I don't see what that has to do with the story.

So I replied again:

Bradley97 S1 week ago

+flyjunior15 For the record, I enjoy all Gundam series on their own merits. To me there is no one version that is superior to the rest as each tells its own story in its own way. Whether I like one story over another is a matter of personal opinion. My post is not a rant, rather an objective commentary on my observations of the series in respectful disagreement with Animaster.

I enjoyed Mobile Suit Gundam and personally give it 4/5 stars only because it was cut short and had to skip a proper explanation of what a Newtype is. I was looking forward to Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam and as my post explains, I was disappointed because of very real and unignorable flaws in the series. You choose to call my arguments childish, but others have pointed out the same issues in this very comments section, so I am not alone in my observations. Does that mean everyone who agrees with me is childish? It seems you view my 3/5 star rating as an attack on the UC franchise. If I recall correctly, Animaster does not give ZZ Gundam a high rating, so does that make him a hater as well?

As I said above, I would be happy to read why you disagree with the issues I have with Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam. Rather than dismiss my post with your specious argument above I challenge you to prove me wrong point by point instead of dismissing me with your own childish rant. I have stated my case clearly. I have singled out problems with the plot, problems with the characters, and problems with a deus ex machina that greatly hurt what could have been an outstanding sequel to Mobile Suit Gundam. In fact, I will go one step further: The flaws in Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam almost do to its own universe what the flaws in Mobile Suite Gundam Seed Destiny the Seed universe. I find both disappointing but for very different reasons.

In any case, now my avatar is 00 Gundam, so is my rant now that of a childish 00 fan? By the way, you never finished your first post. It ends abruptly in the middle of a sentence.

Of course, at that point he did not respond, so that's that. But for whatever reason his attack bothers me. At that point I looked up his channel. And then I read his disclaimer in his "About" section: https://www.youtube.com/user/flyjunior15/about

And that Google translates to this:

* Not obligate anyone to think like me, but to show by my style a review, if you do not like how I do're free stuff go and close the screen video anytime since any comment that is to defend with arguments will well received, but if that person only comes as burned little boy because they insulted his series of animated cartoons, will be ignored me, and if you try to become the "psychologist" in the internet about my personal life, your comments will be deleted, and more if that person has nothing better how to defend something he likes to attack the user if his HATE susudicho beyond all human limits internet, and feel like REVENGE off the screen of your PC.
will be blocked and deleted those comments, I said.
* MY CHANNEL, MY RULES!
* Not accept X Sub Sub
* Invitations to friends, please Tell me, answer me, who knows not send me just like that I do not accept people adrift.

So this guy went and did to me what he doesn't want done to him, and he judged me based on my avatar instead of the words I wrote and the argument I made, and then he just walked off into the sunset (so far).

But I guess that's the Internet, and I'm crazy for even bothering to share an opinion.

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:49 pm

Hmm well I would say he belongs to the "Do as I say not as I do" school of thought. It also appears I got the wrong end of the stick in my first reply, so with the new information, let's do a take two.

Answer: you're not crazy for sharing your opinion as long as you're prepared to defend it and listen to the other side if they give a good argument that makes you see things in a different light. The other poster didn't do that and wrote you off as a lira fan boy and may of assumed you were there to just say "SEED TEH BEST" thus wrote you off. The fact you answered him back didn't bother him as you were just another seed fanboy to him assuming that your message wasn't lost in translation.

In short, forget about him and just keep to posting your opinion. People like that are a dime a dozen but there's also people who will more then gladly take the time to debate your stance and keep everything civil

News Credits: 60 · by **fenrir72** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:05 pm

The original universe of A.Ray/Aznable is imho kind of like G1. I put it loosely on the quality of the latter as Gundam is one very complicated heartwrenching look into how totally pointless war is. This is the foundation. All the other incarnations are simply retelling the same plot albeit using new presentation techniques.

Artwise, I also dig the artstyle of SEED (Lunamaria especially :twisted:

). But the original still stands the test of time. Kind of like the Disney artsyle of the 1950s Cinderella/ Peter Pan when applied using modern CGI techniques makes it's beauty shine more.

Too bad Tomino hasn't cleared the final fate of Amuro and Char in Char's Counter Attack, though deep down, I fear the worst.

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:32 am

Fenir, it was Sunrise who wanted to keep amuro and chars fate ambiguous, Tomino wanted them dead. This is why he wrote Chars Counterattack: Beltorchicka's Children (my spelling socks but I blame Tomino for giving Amuros gf from Zeta a ridiculous name). It leaves nothing to imagine about amuro and chars final fate as he spells it out pretty well. It also gave us the hi-nu gundam and the nightingale (a souped up sazabi)

Ah I have missed talking about gundam.

Also Fenir is that lunamaria in your avatar picture

News Credits: 60 · by **fenrir72** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:54 am

ZeroWolf wrote:Fenir, it was Sunrise who wanted to keep amuro and chars fate ambiguous, Tomino wanted them dead. This is why he wrote Chars Counterattack: Beltorchicka's Children (my spelling socks but I blame Tomino for giving Amuros gf from Zeta a ridiculous name). It leaves nothing to imagine about amuro and chars final fate as he spells it out pretty well. It also gave us the hi-nu gundam and the nightingale (a souped up sazabi)

Ah I have missed talking about gundam.

Also Fenir is that lunamaria in your avatar picture

Kinda like Hasbro shot themselves in the foot killing Optimus back in 1986 but keeps on resurrecting him? Yup. Such cop outs do occur on both sides of the Pacific.So Tomino did that? Is it considered canon?

Love that kick @ss RX-93 in that final showdown between those two mortal rivals.

Luna who :WHISTLE:

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:56 am

On the one hand, Destiny was a legitimately bad series, (As opposed to, say, Wing, which is of the illegitimate "Too many people like it therefore it is bad" variety) with too much emphasis on trying to remind people of things they already saw. (Constant use of flashbacks, and three clipshows in a 50 episode series; they might have been marketing the show to goldfish) Not to mention Kira being shoehorned back into the Hero role for no reason, swinging the series from "Maybe ZAFT isn't so bad..." to "They're exactly as bad as they were in the last series."

And it's not like Shinn was a great protagonist either, having possibly the most backwards motivation in all of Gundam; his sister is killed in the crossfire of an MS battle, he sees the Freedom and immediately pins the blame on it...and then goes on to become a Mobile Suit pilot, the exact profession that got his sister killed.

Though maybe it's just because I haven't watched Destiny since I was a kid.

That aside, there's the other hand I meant to talk about earlier; unless the SEED series is specifically tainting your view of the Universal Century, then it's completely irrelevant to your opinions of Zeta Gundam.

tl;dr version, Destiny sucks, but the guy who pulled a "You like something I hate, your argument is invalid" BS sucks more.

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:06 am

Fenir I think the animation is Canon but it's really up to whatever you want as they don't appear again in any fiction. ..apart from a couple of A.I. systems based on them in the F90 manga

News Credits: 60 · by **fenrir72** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:10 am

ZeroWolf wrote:Fenir I think the animation is Canon but it's really up to whatever you want as they don't appear again in any fiction. ..apart from a couple of A.I. systems based on them in the F90 manga

Too bad.......gives Bandai/Sunrise more opportunities to milk the original them :lol:

(slight deviation) Same with Macross,the original SDF and crew. The companies create iconic characters we all have grown to love then suddenly archive them. Whatever happened to Hikaru, Min Mei and Misa? Just disappears in the middle of the galaxy? Fate unknown......

At least you mentioned Tomino's effort....thanks.

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:26 am

No worries, you should hear that he was going to bring back char in ZZ but that changed as Chars Counterattack got green lit. Though some of Tominos other U.C. works are a bit depressing like the novel Hathaways Flash...TThings don't end well for ole favourite Bright Noa.

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:37 pm

ZeroWolf wrote:Hmm well I would say he belongs to the "Do as I say not as I do" school of thought. It also appears I got the wrong end of the stick in my first reply, so with the new information, let's do a take two.

Answer: you're not crazy for sharing your opinion as long as you're prepared to defend it and listen to the other side if they give a good argument that makes you see things in a different light. The other poster didn't do that and wrote you off as a lira fan boy and may of assumed you were there to just say "SEED TEH BEST" thus wrote you off. The fact you answered him back didn't bother him as you were just another seed fanboy to him assuming that your message wasn't lost in translation.

In short, forget about him and just keep to posting your opinion. People like that are a dime a dozen but there's also people who will more then gladly take the time to debate your stance and keep everything civil

Thanks.

I'm always ready to share, listen, defend and discuss. That's why I was so taken aback by his comments and repeatedly asked him to take on my points in civil discussion. I even changed my avatar to 00 Gundam to prove my point that I'm not a Seed fanboy, rather I like all Gundam series for what they are (and to make him look foolish when new people read the exchange :twisted:

).

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:49 pm

fenrir72 wrote:The original universe of A.Ray/Aznable is imho kind of like G1. I put it loosely on the quality of the latter as Gundam is one very complicated heartwrenching look into how totally pointless war is. This is the foundation. All the other incarnations are simply retelling the same plot albeit using new presentation techniques.

Artwise, I also dig the artstyle of SEED (Lunamaria especially ). But the original still stands the test of time. Kind of like the Disney artsyle of the 1950s Cinderella/ Peter Pan when applied using modern CGI techniques makes it's beauty shine more.

I agree with your assessment. And Seed is basically an almost direct retelling of the original story. Similar to the original, Seed also fails to explain "Seed Theory" even with Erica Simmons voicing over a clip show that was supposed to do just that. However, I thought the genetic engineering concept was brilliant, as Natural vs. Coordinator can be applied to modern day discriminatory situations and the violence that unfortunately breaks out because of them. But I don't think I can judge one based on the other as there would be no alternate Gundam series without the original, and all of the series I have seen are phenomenal at exploring the consequences of war.

The problem about being like G1 is that unfortunately it seems the fan base is splintered in a similar manner, with some UC purists hating on just about everything and everyone else, and some Seed fans doing the same to UC, etc. Why can't we all just get along? :PEACE:

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:57 pm

Shadowman wrote:On the one hand, Destiny was a legitimately bad series, (As opposed to, say, Wing, which is of the illegitimate "Too many people like it therefore it is bad" variety) with too much emphasis on trying to remind people of things they already saw. (Constant use of flashbacks, and three clipshows in a 50 episode series; they might have been marketing the show to goldfish) Not to mention Kira being shoehorned back into the Hero role for no reason, swinging the series from "Maybe ZAFT isn't so bad..." to "They're exactly as bad as they were in the last series."

And it's not like Shinn was a great protagonist either, having possibly the most backwards motivation in all of Gundam; his sister is killed in the crossfire of an MS battle, he sees the Freedom and immediately pins the blame on it...and then goes on to become a Mobile Suit pilot, the exact profession that got his sister killed.

Though maybe it's just because I haven't watched Destiny since I was a kid.

That aside, there's the other hand I meant to talk about earlier; unless the SEED series is specifically tainting your view of the Universal Century, then it's completely irrelevant to your opinions of Zeta Gundam.

tl;dr version, Destiny sucks, but the guy who pulled a "You like something I hate, your argument is invalid" BS sucks more.

Seed has no effect on my opinion. CE is its own universe. I greatly enjoyed watching Mobile Suit Gundam, and I realize Seed is a direct retelling. And Destiny is a disaster, as I mentioned earlier. It could have been great, but it took a very wrong turn into fanwank territory instead of redeeming Shinn and making him the hero alongside Athrun in place of Kira. Whether or not Kira should have died, I don't know. Maybe. Or maybe he should have barely survived and returned to action in the Akatsuki in the final battle as the battlefield general, with the primary focus on Shinn and Athrun vs. the crazy Durandal. It's not that ZAFT was just as bad as before, it was that Durandal had the Destiny Plan and intended to force that on the world as a solution to war. It was a good idea, but the way it unfolded is unfortunate.

I still love the mobile suits and nothing will change that.

News Credits: 60 · by **fenrir72** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:40 pm

Bradimus wrote:
fenrir72 wrote:The original universe of A.Ray/Aznable is imho kind of like G1. I put it loosely on the quality of the latter as Gundam is one very complicated heartwrenching look into how totally pointless war is. This is the foundation. All the other incarnations are simply retelling the same plot albeit using new presentation techniques.

Artwise, I also dig the artstyle of SEED (Lunamaria especially ). But the original still stands the test of time. Kind of like the Disney artsyle of the 1950s Cinderella/ Peter Pan when applied using modern CGI techniques makes it's beauty shine more.

I agree with your assessment. And Seed is basically an almost direct retelling of the original story. Similar to the original, Seed also fails to explain "Seed Theory" even with Erica Simmons voicing over a clip show that was supposed to do just that. However, I thought the genetic engineering concept was brilliant, as Natural vs. Coordinator can be applied to modern day discriminatory situations and the violence that unfortunately breaks out because of them. But I don't think I can judge one based on the other as there would be no alternate Gundam series without the original, and all of the series I have seen are phenomenal at exploring the consequences of war.

The problem about being like G1 is that unfortunately it seems the fan base is splintered in a similar manner, with some UC purists hating on just about everything and everyone else, and some Seed fans doing the same to UC, etc. Why can't we all just get along?

I kind of used to think that way but age has a way of opening up a closed mind. Another thing failed to mention or cleared in SEED is the winged whale. WTF was that for? And Lunamaria is the only saving grace in Destiny aside from reintroducing Kira and Lacus as the main protagonists :lol:

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:15 am

fenrir72 wrote:Another thing failed to mention or cleared in SEED is the winged whale. WTF was that for?

It was a fossil the original coordinator found on a deep space mission to Jupiter. Supposedly it proved the existence of extraterrestrial life, and...somehow severely weakened the world's religions? Now that's something that needed explaining. Apparently God can't exist at the same time as space whales.

fenrir72 wrote:And Lunamaria is the only saving grace in Destiny aside from reintroducing Kira and Lacus as the main protagonists

How does Kira becoming the main protagonist count as a saving grace? It was one of the biggest writing missteps in the entire show.

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:18 am

Shadowman wrote:
fenrir72 wrote:Another thing failed to mention or cleared in SEED is the winged whale. WTF was that for?

It was a fossil the original coordinator found on a deep space mission to Jupiter. Supposedly it proved the existence of extraterrestrial life, and...somehow severely weakened the world's religions? Now that's something that needed explaining. Apparently God can't exist at the same time as space whales.

fenrir72 wrote:And Lunamaria is the only saving grace in Destiny aside from reintroducing Kira and Lacus as the main protagonists

How does Kira becoming the main protagonist count as a saving grace? It was one of the biggest writing missteps in the entire show.

I forgot about the fossil just being thrown in there. That and Kira's mystical survival from Athrun blowing up the Aegis as well as no proper explanation for what the Seeds are simply show the lack of proofreading by the writers and artists. I can see Kira's survival explained away as him figuring out how to eject from an previously unknown to us top hatch (like the Freedom and Justice have) just before the explosion. But in Destiny, that nuclear explosion after the Freedom fell into the water cannot be explained away.

I don't agree that Kira ever became the main protagonist in Destiny. Shinn and Athrun were the protagonists, as well as antagonists to each other, with Kira being an antagonist to both. But he did become the saving grace, and again that goes to poor decision making. Shinn should have switched sides and escaped with Athrun when the new mobile suits were revealed, and Shinn should have become the pilot of the Strike Freedom (following in Kamille's footsteps as he became the pilot of the Gundam Mk II).

And I cannot stress enough that Phantom Pain should have been another clone, because that would have been a great plot twist (Durandal controlling both sides all along) and worked better with the final Destiny Plan endgame. Instead Shinn becomes the most annoying Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader clone I'm aware of. Seeing Shinn wake up to the horrors of war and redeem himself by overcoming his hatred to realize his home of Orb stood for true piece would have made for a good third act.

Plus it would have been awesome to see Shinn go head to head with Ray in their new Gundams, and Athrun continue his battle with Phantom Pain in their new Gundams.

I still admit to enjoying Kira being the hero, but after he caused chaos on the battlefield and the life of a ZAFT pilot he became a hypocrite and like Shinn he never showed that he learned anything from his mistakes. Both characters were terribly mistreated by the writers.

Luna, on the other hand, was consistent throughout, and she was the only character to find real redemption at the end of the series. Such a shame.

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:52 am

In the manga adaption the phase shift armour protected kira from aegis then kira crawled away (yeah as if that was a better explanation) then Gundam SEED Astray came along with their explanation (Lowe gear arrived on the scene with red frame and pulled kira out of the cockpit but again phase shift armour saved the day).

As for destiny, kira took over the protagonist role because he was the most popular in Japan at the time, no other seed show characters could come close apart from Athrun but he was kkira's bff anyway. I mean I can think of the last time a show had to redo it's ending because of how much it failed (ooh look none of the good guy ms actually took a hit and every bad guy went down to easy)

Plus another thing that bothered me was how clear cut the sides became. In seed there was good guys and imbeciles on both sides...ttill the final arc where everyone became jerks.

In destiny though, zaft were shown to be the good guys and all of the earth alliance were jerks till kira comes on the scene again then everything turns again and now zaft are also jerks...SSigh, it's my belief that after this Turn-A turned up and just used it's moonlight butterfly power to turn everything to scrap so the idiots could just die out.

Oh wait I do remember another show that redid it's ending, evangelion. Though that just got remade because anno got annoyed that no one liked his Art ending so we got End of Evangelion.

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:07 am

ZeroWolf wrote:In the manga adaption the phase shift armour protected kira from aegis then kira crawled away (yeah as if that was a better explanation) then Gundam SEED Astray came along with their explanation (Lowe gear arrived on the scene with red frame and pulled kira out of the cockpit but again phase shift armour saved the day).

As for destiny, kira took over the protagonist role because he was the most popular in Japan at the time, no other seed show characters could come close apart from Athrun but he was kkira's bff anyway. I mean I can think of the last time a show had to redo it's ending because of how much it failed (ooh look none of the good guy ms actually took a hit and every bad guy went down to easy)

Plus another thing that bothered me was how clear cut the sides became. In seed there was good guys and imbeciles on both sides...ttill the final arc where everyone became jerks.

In destiny though, zaft were shown to be the good guys and all of the earth alliance were jerks till kira comes on the scene again then everything turns again and now zaft are also jerks...SSigh, it's my belief that after this Turn-A turned up and just used it's moonlight butterfly power to turn everything to scrap so the idiots could just die out.

Oh wait I do remember another show that redid it's ending, evangelion. Though that just got remade because anno got annoyed that no one liked his Art ending so we got End of Evangelion.

I don't buy phase shift saving Kira. Didn't he run out of power just like Athrun? I'll buy unkown until then prototype top hatch. Of course I made that up during this discussion, but that's because I can't think of anything else. It's not my job to explain how someone survives, that's up to the writers.

I see your reasoning for calling Kira the protagonist after Durandal showed his hand and Shinn went to the dark side. I still see him as the antagonist and Shinn as the primary protagonist until the end. But there is no question Kira became the focus and saving grace, and the Orb mobile suits getting away with no damage was no different than Zeta's deus ex machina super power, just without the super power explanation, which is worse story-wise. And that all happened because of Kira's popularity over the other characters. But Shinn was so annoying at times and never learned anything (Kira faced court marshal for returning Lacus, Shinn got away without even a slap on the wrist and let everyone know it). And when his girlfriend became the pilot of the Destroy he still didn't realize the mistake he made trusting the enemy and instead continued to blame Kira for all the wrongs in his life. What's worse is Athrun's reaction after Shinn defeated Kira. He broke down crying instead of saying something intelligent, like "you didn't get revenge for me, for you, for anyone, and if you think you did you haven't learned a [expletive] thing." Again, poor writing killed what should have been big moments in Destiny.

As for everyone on both sides becoming jerks in Seed, I don't see that. I thought the Three Ships Alliance vs. ZAFT vs. the EU worked well in the third act. And I thought the revelation that Rau le Creuset was the one manipulating ZAFT and the Blue Cosmos controlled EU was brilliant. That's why I wish Phantom Pain would have turned out to be another clone, to further Durandal's brilliance and ruthlessness in accomplishing his Destiny Plan goal.

I liked in Destiny that ZAFT appeared to be the good guys vs. the still evil EU, and I like how things unfolded with Durandal. He was a great villain, second to Rau le Cruset in the CE universe. As Char clones go, both were solid. The problem was that unlike Zeta, where Amuro played a supporting role, Kira took over the starring role instead of stepping aside for Shinn to be the hero. I would have had no problem with Kira surviving his battle with Shinn from a plot point so long as he came out scarred like Waltfeld (but still able to pilot the Akatsuki in the finale). In fact, I would not have minded Kira confronting Durandal in the end, alongside Shinn and Athrun, with Shinn being the one to pull the trigger instead of Ray, or the confrontation ending in a proper shootout and Ray still killing Durandal. I don't know, lot's of room there to work with had Shinn been redeemed instead of wasted.

And I hated the Art ending of Evangelion. Made no sense at all and I'm glad they made The End of Evangelion to replace the final two episodes. If anyone asks me about that series I inform them about their options. I'm not sure if you're saying you liked the original series ending of Evangelion or if you preferred the movie replacement ending like I do. Either way, I don't mind giving people choices. Just because the original ending disappointed and confused me doesn't mean it didn't work for someone else. But it seems to me that the movie ending was always going to happen in a movie because we see the physical results of the attack on their base in the second to last episode before the existential stuff starts to happen, so it looks like the plan all along was to go with the weird ending for TV and make everyone go the movies for the physical ending. I think it would have been more interesting had they gone with the big fight in its proper place and then inserted the stuff that happens in the final two episodes into the moment where the world is about the be reborn, and then end with the final scene in the goo from the movie.

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:23 pm

Turning to evangelion, I watched it for the first time and I loved it, apart from the nonsensical ending. On further re watches though I started liking it less and less. I'd much prefer watching Rahxepon.

Sunrise wanted this to be Zeta for this age but Destiny fell really far. Missing everything that made Zeta what it was, even other anime learned from it (aalthough Zeta itself jumped on board the transformation mecha bandwagon taking cues from macross)

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:18 pm

ZeroWolf wrote:Turning to evangelion, I watched it for the first time and I loved it, apart from the nonsensical ending. On further re watches though I started liking it less and less. I'd much prefer watching Rahxepon.

Sunrise wanted this to be Zeta for this age but Destiny fell really far. Missing everything that made Zeta what it was, even other anime learned from it (aalthough Zeta itself jumped on board the transformation mecha bandwagon taking cues from macross)

I find Evangelion to be more of an acquired taste. It's extremely violent, and can be depressing, especially without knowing what the end goal is. It's not in my top twenty anime, or my top ten mecha anime, though admittedly I never put a list together and am always seeing something new to throw everything out of whack.

I did see Rahzephon. That was intersting, though not as memorable as Evangelion. I may have to rewatch it sometime soon.

I assume you mean Sunrise wanted Destiny to be the Zeta of the modern Gundam era. While I have issues a number of Zeta's characters, and with the direction of Newtypes (I much prefer the Seed concept, though it was never properly explained even in the sequel), Zeta's story is far stronger. However killing off so many characters at the end doesn't make much sense since the ending is more of a season finale than a series finale. It's clear there is more story to tell. I still have to watch ZZ to see the rest of that story, but I'm disappointed Char's story did not continue through ZZ.

I saw Char's Counterattack and find I that while the story is strong, I have the same problems with some character development as with Zeta, and I really don't like the "kill em all" nonsense the director commits to. Characters have to die, but when almost everyone dies what's the point of watching the story? And that goes into why Evangelion is an acquired taste, along with some other anime I've seen that take place in a future mysterious society and end with everyone dead. I think Tomino killed of Amuro and Char (I believe he did because that's the only thing that make sense to me in my viewing of the final scenes) because that was the only way to he could put an end to the UC. Too bad for him the UC continued with new stories throughout the timeline established by the primary seasons. I read somewhere that when he was depressed his work would result in everyone getting killed and when he was not enough characters would live to make for a happy ending.

I just realized both Zeta and Destiny suffer from the opposite side of the same coin: In Zeta nobody can live, and in Destiny nobody can stay dead. :-?

I like the transforming Gundams, but it helps when they actually work like in 00 (all of Allelujah's Gundams). In fact, my only issue with 00 is Setsuna's regression from when we see him leading Celestial Being as a confident, more outgoing person even after his transformation by the end of season two to becoming a complete introvert again in the movie. And writing that off by saying he is still learning to handle his abilities, or his love is too much for one person is not good enough. The fact is he did love one person, and he returned to her at the end, so what the heck were they thinking? :BANG_HEAD:

I really feel sorry for Feldt. Maybe she gets together with Lockon in the end after all? I have to admit I'm a sucker for happy endings, and that may skew my opinion on some stories if I don't think the characters reached their proper conclusions.

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:50 pm

Evangelion isn't that violent in the grand scheme of things and even some Gundam ovas are more violent. Speaking of which, have you seen one of the best, Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket? That is a really good story. It doesn't try to act like a prequel the way 0083: Stardust Memories does but it's all the better for it.

As for Eva vs Rah, it does come to personal choice at the end of the day but I feel the central love story at the center of rah more appealing then dealing with another emo Shinji...ggod there was a kid who needed either a bright slap or a guy like Kamina from TTGL to motivate him.

As it stands, in my lists rah is higher then Eva but both are overshadowed by other series I enjoy like Tenga Toppa Gurren Laggan, King of Braves GaoGaiGar, and Full Metal Panic.

Yeah everyone knows Kill'em All Tomino, and I think the style worked showing just how brutal war was, not everyone does have a happy ending, especially if the director is in a depression episode. Sad thing is, people preferred him in this style as ZZ wasn't that well received.

You are wrong about Tomino wanting to kill off UC, he just wanted Amuro and Char dead so he could tell new stories without them being a part of it. After all he still did a few more works in UC, Gundam F91 (hhe wanted this to be a full length series but they only gave him a movie so he shoved the plot into a two hour slot and it showed really badly), Crossbone Gundam manga (Tomino way of apology for F91) and Victory Gundam (another made in his depression era, also last full length UC series till Reconguista in G)

See I prefer New types myself but that's because they are explained as evolution which is an interesting concept, SEED was obviously an attempt to do this but failed as it became just another "rage mode" In the end. Of course 00 introduced the idea of innovates which was in the middle ground of the three.

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:16 pm

I have a lot to watch still in UC, so I have not seen 0080 yet, but I'll add it to my list of things to watch since you are recommending it so highly.

I stand corrected about Tomino only wanting to kill off characters so new ones could take their place. But I thought the original cast was handled well in Zeta, with Amuro becoming a key support character to Kamille and Char. Keeping Amuro on Earth accomplished the same end without losing the character forever. Of course people die in war, but I felt Tomino killed them off in Zeta just because. And he didn't kill Reccoa or Katz fast enough for my taste. I really dislike those characters. It's not good when the viewer is begging for a character to get killed.

I love the 3 anime you listed above. And I love GaoGaiGar in spite of the OVA's bittersweet ending. That was a great story, the last King of Braves.

Of Newtypes, SEED's and Innovators, 00 is the only series to actually explain the human evolution. 00 also provided a reason for the need to evolve as seen in Awakening of the Trailblazer, so it gets a lot of credit even though the movie was a bit of a letdown if for no other reason than it might have been better told over the course of a miniseries because there was so much packed in.

Another movie that let me down is GITS:SAC Solid State Society. I love the series, and it ranks very high up there along with Cowboy Bebop at top of my list (that I have never officially made). But Solid State Society feels like a 26 episode season shoved into a cinematic run time. It's a good story, and a good finale to the series, if indeed it is the last we will see of that run, but I really wish they would take the movie and expand it into a full 3rd Gig.

I'm also disappointed The Big O didn't get another 26 episodes. The writers had everything mapped out, and I can only guess they intended to delve deeper into the mysteries of Paradigm City and answer at least some of the remaining questions had they been given the chance to do so. Plus Big O probably would have gotten some new weapons and we would have gotten more interesting Megadeuces. I wish that show would get a chance to finish telling its story.

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:30 pm

Big o let me down with its ending...i still love the series, I love the style the music but yet I feel the last few episodes let the show down massively.

I love GaoGaiGar FINAL for the ending that it was though I'm still curious as to what the planned ova could of been like.

New types were human evolution as well as in UC lore it was theorised by chars father.

I agree with Katz, I'm really surprised he didn't die sooner with the way he threw himself into the fight. I was also surprised that Yarzan survived all things considered though he becomes comedy fodder in ZZ before he dies a humiliating death, so maybe a quick death would of been too good for him.

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:23 pm

ZeroWolf wrote:Big o let me down with its ending...i still love the series, I love the style the music but yet I feel the last few episodes let the show down massively.

I love GaoGaiGar FINAL for the ending that it was though I'm still curious as to what the planned ova could of been like.

I don't think the end of Big O was meant to be the end of the story. I've rewatched the series multiple times as it takes several viewings to understand what is going on. It seems the series ends with Angel resetting things to how they were at the beginning, but with herself and R. Dorothy both in Roger's life, and with all of them retaining their memories of what led up to the final battle and the reset. Had they been allowed to continue I think they would have picked up the investigation into the city's true nature, though I doubt we would ever have gotten a definitive answer to all our questions.

I'm also curious about what they had planed after GaoGaiGar Final. That tease definitely piques my curiosity. Maybe some day we'll get the next chapter to that story. Still, Final does answer all the questions from the series, so I can live with that ending.